Vehicle Rules Numbers Issue

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CKirk
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Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:05 pm

Vehicle Rules Numbers Issue

Postby CKirk » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:19 pm

Alright, I understand that it's supposed to be hard to disable vehicles. It should, however, not require you to use antimatter explosives to disable a vehicle's engine. The average weight of a modern car's engine is 300 lbs. That makes it a rating 30 combustion engine (10 lbs/rating). A combustion engine has 75*Q*R hit points, giving this engine 2,250 HP. The engine also has 10 hardness, and as mentioned on page 195 of the DSRB, subsystems divide damage taken by their hardness, giving this engine effectively 22,500 HP. Assuming average rolls and not using the Anti-Vehicle mutable, this requires a staggering 6,500 dice (almost) of damage, which is over a pound and a quarter of antimatter explosives, or over 90 lbs of enhanced plastic explosives. This is absurd, as modern firearms can disable car engines. If we assume an anti-materiel rifle is a shot cannon, then 12d6 should be able to disable a car's engine. As you can see, it can't. This is a huge problem. As a side note, this results in thermodyne engines serving as the most weight efficient armor in an onion ship design, providing an effective 150 HP/lb at Q1, for only 2.5 credits/lb. Similarly, combustion engines provide the most cost efficient armor, at 75 HP/lb for a single credit/lb.

Vehicle numbers need serious changes to bring this in line with both realism and game balance (the vehicle's chassis will be destroyed long before any of its components are, not being able to make use of the divisor that subsystems are offered).

Strutinan
Mad Scientist Supreme
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Vehicle Rules Numbers Issue

Postby Strutinan » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:46 am

I have been seriously thinking about this actually. First off you seem to be misunderstanding the divisor system for damaging vehicle subsystems. Here is the order of operations for it.
1 - Roll damage
2 - Multiply damage (if explosive) by x2 per vehicle size above Medium
3 - Subtract armor DR/ER from damage
4 - Apply remaining damage to Chassis
5 - Make Fort save for vehicle, if damage is high enough (see page 195 "Component Damage")
6 - Amount the Fort save is failed by determines subsystem hit
7 - Divide damage taken by the Chassis by the subsystem's Hardness (this is largely to mitigate the multiplier for explosion)
8 - If the subsystem takes damage equal to 1% of its HP, or totaling 10% of its HP, it must pass a DC 15 save or break (this is the point where things fail)

The HP of an object represent the damage it must absorb before being reduced to shredded confetti. This is NOT the same as it being DISABLED (which is what happens normally). The idea was to enable items to break, but still be repaired. However, I think this is not really working in application.

So I have come up with two possible solutions. I don't know which one to apply, because I don't want to make objects TOO fragile!

1 - Change the subsystem divisor for Hardness, into a subtraction. Problem: robots will get fucked up FAST, since their subsystems have so few HP as it stands, and the same with any smaller-size vehicle.
2 - Change the base table for HP by material on page 86 from "2/1/5/10/15/30/40/50" to "2/2/3/4/5/6/7/8", which forward-substitutes all HP values for all items (so that the engines you mentioned would have 1/12th the listed HP), but leaves armor values unchanged. Problem: this is a SHIT-TON of editing work...and I don't even know if it would actually SOLVE the problem without totally NERFING things into noodle-swords!

Your thoughts?

CKirk
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Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:05 pm

Re: Vehicle Rules Numbers Issue

Postby CKirk » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:12 am

Alright, as a response to 1: Robots already have hardness as a subtraction, not a divisor, so this wouldn't impact them at all. That aside, I think robots are too durable now, but that's an argument for another time.

As a response to 2: That'd work, but again, the first option would work as well if not better. As it stands, if you implement either option, an anti-materiel rifle would, on average rolls, disable a car's engine, as is the case in real life. However, the first option only requires the change of one line in the vehicle combat rules.

This all said, as to your step 8 (DC 15 save or break), I'm not sure where that is in the book. It's not listed in either vehicle combat or the vehicle damage rules, where I would assume it should be found.

Strutinan
Mad Scientist Supreme
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Vehicle Rules Numbers Issue

Postby Strutinan » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:00 pm

Ok, I made the appropriate edit to the DSRB, so you can find it in the errata going into the next printing. It now says that you SUBTRACT Hardness, rather than DIVIDE BY it.


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